Wednesday, July 14, 2010

On Testbeds, Caste & Languages

I have never tested my casteist opinions on this blog and now is as good a time as any. Today its the turn of a set of opinions - developed by stereotyping people based on their caste - to be tested. This one is on thamizh brahmins and thamizh non-brahmins. For sake of simplicity, we will conveniently ignore the subdivision among the latter category and treat them as a single unit.

Thamizh Brahmins, at least from the opinions they express and how they are perceived by non-brahmins, are less patriotic towards the 'thamizh' cause. Be it Srilankan thamizh issue or indhi-thinippu issue (a.k.a forcing Hindi on thamizhans by masking it as national language) - they are more willing than non-brahmins to abandon the thamizh cause and align themselves to a more national (read anti-thamizh) view. Karunanidhi, Periyar and Anna Durai claim (much to the disgust of brahmins) that people of this caste are not-thamizh but rather aryans or whatever bleh - and it seems like the pattern of behavior matches those claims. I am not trying to get into 'right' or 'wrong' of the issues here but simply pattern-recognition. So I urge readers to treat it this way.

It is hard to ignore the pattern where a majority of Brahmins are (a) enamoured with Hindi and the status associated with speaking Hindi. Some I know 'vaaya polandhu' paathufy (mouth agape and see) people who speak Hindi fluently and despoly try to talk the language in a bad accent even when there is no need to. Many are proud to say they don't know thamizh but only Hindi; (b) quick to disrespect and lessen the importance of the 'thamizh cause' (as in they think it is not a worthy cause). They are ready to support a hypothetical legislation which adopts hindi as a spoken/written language of the state (even when there is no need to do so now given the dominance of English) at the cost of ignoring thamizh (i.e. they don't care if thamizh becomes extinct as long as learning Hindi puts them at some advantage) ; (c) condemn LTTE, sri lankan tamils without any consideration/debate and urge for non-interference of India in this issue regardless of what SL does to thamizhans there (predominant reason quoted is - it would contradict India's stand on another state - Kashmir) (d) Very quick to 'pooh pooh' and belittle thamizh language's classical status, its history, and its unique tendency to resist (to a decent extent) invasion of its space by other languages. Some non-brahmins may be guilty of all of this but these traits are very common, popular and considered common sense in this caste.

While brahmins are seen as indhi suck-ups, non-brahmins are suspect English boot-lickers. The minuscule few who come to western countries take enormous pride in talking in fake accents and try and behave like a DCBA (desi confused by americans). The single biggest pattern I have noticed here is - regardless of whether they live in India or outside they always teach their kids to say 'mummy' and 'daddy' but not 'appa' and 'amma'. In the late 80s and 90s, funny phrases such as 'daddy thittum' and 'mammi veiyyum' were used by economically backward converted Christians. But these phrases are becoming more and more common now. People in this category always mispronounce 'ள' and 'ழ' and pronounce it as 'ல'. This category, while they respect thamizh, are poor in pronouncing it and mastering it (even the minority brahmins who take interest in thamizh are able to master the language better than them barring a few exceptions).

Needless to say the stereotyping theme was 'caste' and 'language'. And needless to say the truth is usually in some shade of gray and in between the two extremes. But the point of the post was to test (1) How popular is this stereotype is among the set of stereotypes people do w/ caste - is it more prevalent than just me and my group of friends or (2) does one category think the stereotype of the other category rings true (but at the same time feel the stereotype of themselves is untrue :-) )?

disclaimer: Been using this blog to test out popularity of certain 'controversial' opinions for a long time. Would appreciate if readers focused purely on caste stereotype rather than on whether 'sri lanka is right/wrong' or whether 'thamizh was truly older than sanskrit' etc)

44 comments:

janani said...

Well, I really don't know about the indhi bit. Me and all the other tam brams I know vehemently hate hindi padams if not the language. It has become infinitely cool of late to denounce all Bollywood saying saying it's all masala. But I could be in a minority here, since my knowledge of indhi is pretty limited.

I guess I agree with b and c though (the pattern not the issue). And (d) I think is a non issue. I may not be a thamizh pulavi, but I don't go around belittling thamizh to everyone (as do my friends)

As for the Mummy-Daddy bit, I have noticed that with non-brahmins while growing up in Chennai, leave alone the US. And the 'ள' and 'ழ' mispronunciation also - used to drive my thamizh teacher nuts!

>> does one category think the stereotype of the other category rings true (but at the same time feel the stereotype of themselves is untrue

This is an unfair question, considering you have 4 things about the brahmins and just 1 about the other.

Anupadmaja said...

A suggestion - define boot-licking because thats a judgement call and that can change the opinions you receive drastically.

Anonymous said...

Sorry thambi, I have to completely disagree with you. I am a Tambram, learnt thamizh in school, and proudly live and breathe my thamizh culture every single day in the US. My baby's first words are "appa" and "amma". Many of my uncles are Thamizh scholars. And FYI, Bharathiyar was a Brahmin. Did you know that?

Anonymous said...

Hawkeyeview,

I dont have time now but i will defintely write a lengthy post on this later

Just would like to say that tambrahms are the unfortunate lot to fall in this stereotype category.I have stayed in the most interior parts of tamilnadu and dealt with delhi tambrahms and haryana jats up north who are more at home with pakistanis

I feel tambrahms fall in two categories beacuse of the choice offered by the dravidian movement.Those who are passionate about the 'thread' are comfortable with hindi.Those who are passionate about the 'tongue' are comfortable with thamizh.This would appear simplistic but more on this later


Sri

Sundar Narayanan said...

oru point by point 1,2,3 potta life would be easy for commenters like me to say

1- true
2- false etc.

:(

TB considered biased to Hindi/Tamizh (kashmir/Elangai) -
true.

Non TB - cannot say zh but claim more allegiance to something they cannot pronounce.. true. A lot of TB's say that.

TB talking in Hindi, Non TB talking in Peter - also seen it multiple times.

andha kaalththu ITBHU-la, have always wondered why two TB's have to talk in Hindi when there were only tamizhians around within earshot..

but like some commenters here.. it is a stereotypes of perception. majority of the TB's I interact with are very passionate about Tamizh and take pride in the fact that they can read/write/speak the language. blame it on parents who pick 2nd and 3rd language for their kids in school.. if you pick hindi/sanskrit for the kid (so they can get more marks in 10th std) then how can you expect this kid to be proud of Tamizh writing? they automatically become defensive.. my observation shows that within TB's the persons tamizh pro-ness is directly related to their 2nd/3rd language choice in school..

and with non TB's the ones who consider themselves the guardians of the language all went to Tamizh medium schools (so they can get better DOTE scores).

ps note all my data is from kids who went to high school in late eighties.

:)

Karthik Narayanan said...

This categorization is indeed very unfortunate. I am a TamBram brought primarily in north india, and indeed i know hindi better than Tamizh.

However I do speak Tamizh pretty fluently, and always regret that a huge part of the history and literature is forever shut to me since I cannot read the language (always wanted to read ponniyin selvan).

I guess what I am saying it is, that this characterization is wrong, though probably a fact of life, and may be nothing can be done to correct it. Its probably a minority, who give the majority a bad name. Just like a few crazy fundamentalists besmirch Islam.

Anonymous said...

This is so TamiZzzzzzzzzzzzzh

Bhargavi said...

I do agree that there are more tambrahms who can read, write and speak in hindi than the tam-nons. That is because the brahmins are more sagacious, with most men moving up north for studies and work since the 60s or even earlier, it was only natural for them to learn the language the "northies" speak in. If the the non-brahms can not get themselves to learn the survival tactics and instead turn into mispronounced thamizh fanatics, then who is at a loss?

I beg to disagree with Mr. Sundar Narayan, considering most men had transferable jobs back then, the children were by default made to learn hindi in school and I was one such kid. But the love for thamizh soon grew and I learnt to read thamizh so I could appreciate bharathiyar and papanasam sivan better. I know for a fact that this is the case with most tambrahms and they learnt thamizh to read bus signs or to appreciate thamizh literature. So the language picked in school makes no difference unless the child does not listen to a lot of thamizh at home.

The tam-nons on the other hand are neither fish nor fowl and exemplify "rendungattans". They speak within themselves in thamizh and talk to others or mostly to tam-brahms in english. They are the self proclaimed torchbearers of the language right, then why do they have to put up a false semblance of we-can-also-talk-in-english and ask for trouble. I dont mean to generalise, but I cant help saying that all this is due to a huge inferiority complex that has occurred as a result of competing themselves with tam-brahms.

I sound like a bit of an extremist! Sheesh!

Alan Smithee said...

More than the stereotypes, it will be interesting to analyze the causal relationships - Did Brahmins' love for indhi bought them the ire of Dravidians or did Dravidians hate for Brahmins forced them to love indhi and generally be anti-Dravidian causes?

The fake accent of non-TB types is slightly inaccurate. It is limited to the crowd that came here for fixing Y2K and IT consulting thereafter.

Anonymous said...

Modhala Unakku Tamizh padika ezutha theriyuma?

Anonymous said...

இது பார்பனீயம் பற்றிய பாகுபாடு அல்ல, அந்தஸ்து மற்றும் முற்போக்கு சிந்தனை பற்றியதாகும். நீங்கள் உங்களின் சற்றே ஏழ்மை வாய்ந்த குடும்பத்தின் கண்ணோட்டத்தில் பார்ப்பதால், உங்கள் கீழ்மை உணர்வு சாதியை நாடுகிறது.

Bala said...

Knowing Hindi by a Tambram is more of a mid last century phenomenon, Sanskrit was the tambram forte, but necessity - non recognition of talent in your own land made the tambram adapt hindi to work in hindi speaking regions. Looking at the nonbram side of the spectrum you would realise that English had come about due to the growth of Christian schools. These schools project english as the lingua franca of the nonbram community to achieve the so called 'equality'. Finally the biggest loser is our dear Tamizh which has lost its shine to indhi or angilam.

D.N.A. said...

Stereotyping based on caste is prevalent within any 4 walls. IMO, we Indians, irrespective of caste, creed, or religion are by default racist.

I feel your post lacks depth to set up a lively discussion on this topic. When you get a chance, check out this link which was posted a few days ago and addresses the same topic in a better way: http://www.jeyamohan.in/?p=7305

I said...

If you also consider the other forward castes communities, Chettiars (the NKCs particularly), Mudaliars, Pillais and Devars. (who BTW constitute the only Saivites along with the Iyers and the Muruganites in a predominantly Vainava nation).

The Devars became BC/MBC recently but were traditionally FC. All the above FCs were more-or-less equally disadvantaged by governmental policies (reservation etc.) but none took to Indhi/pan-Indian identity as much as Brahmins did. One may argue that the other castes did not depend as much on salaried government employment and were not affected as much by laws that made tillers the owners of agricultural land (1969). Which would not be untrue.

But all of this may not be very relevant today. The pan-Indian identity does not serve much purpose to the Tamil Brahmin in 2010. Private sector employment has surged (reservation is a little harder to bring to the private sector) as has emigration to English-speaking countries. The retaining of the official status of English was in some degree supported(may be even impacted?) by the Dravidian moment. So we can call it even and start hating the North Indians and the Moslem-induced Indhi as proud Tamils.

The language of the Universe (Tamil) and the language of the world (English) both have clear grammar. But you say uski kalam for his pen in Indhi because pen is feminine gender. Such fucked up grammar (also that God-awful case endings which transpose a ke and ki) is reminiscent of French and Urdu/Arabic and this is why I failed so many times in Indhi.

The new world order is:

The Anglosphere and Tamils on one side. Europe, North Indians* and Moslems on the other. Everyone knows who will win.

* North of Arakkonam = North India, in case some geography smartass tries to point out where the Vindhyas are.

Extra-Ordinarily Ordinary said...

Dude,

This brahmins-indeekaaran bhai-bhai is a myth propagated by these pagutharivu pulavargal.

Aryan, podalaanga nu pesitu italy-kaari oda kootani vechcha naai pasanga inda madri makkala emaathitaan.

But, as you said, Mummy kaila solren, daddy itaara sonnaru was very common in some sections of the population.

For these guys, I guess they should read up on who vu.ve.saaminaatha iyer was....

Anonymous said...

whatever man...brahmin slang is so much more annoying than the "la" "La" "zha" confusion.

Hawkeye said...

will respond to each comment soon.. but overall feel a little sad no non-brahmin thamizh makkal are commenting to affirm or counter either stereo type.

i know for sure my readership caste distribution is more diverse.

M said...

It is immeasurably offensive that தமிழ்க்கடவுள் வாழும் திருத்தணிகை is considered north.
On a related note, no self respecting smarthan, living south of Gummudipundi (and that includes Bengalooru), ever considered it awesome to be able to speak Indhi. Even that marwari crowd from sowcarpet will attest to that fact.

SathyaRam said...

Hawkeye

You are right. you have kind of assessed these correctly. Being a TamBram I can vouch your part

But this statement is a bit wrong."The minuscule few who come to western countries ". It is factually wrong and may sound a bit too a 'higher caste' proclaim.

The Talkative Man said...

Haakai,
let me guess your next post - the 'academic/vocational caste divide of desis' : IIT-ians vs non-IIT-ians, USNews University grads vs Dakota University grads, DOTE-1 UGs vs Manipal-type UGs, F1->H1s vs Thiruttu H1s....
wait, I bet you must have shouted yourself hoarse over these, only I didnt read them :)

R said...

I am a Non Brahmin.

I don't have a fake accent. I studied in one of the best Anglo Indian schools in southern india where Actor Vikram , P.T.R.Palanivel Rajan , Nagesh Kukunoor ,Sashi Tharoor studied. I spoke in english throughout my schooling days and as a result my tamil suffered and i don't pronounce words correctly. I am proud of my Mother Tongue and i realized the richness of the language later in life.

I call my parents - Appa , Amma.

And i don't speak Hindi.

I had some college Brahmin Friends who spoke very good Tamil and who pronounced words correctly and a majority who spoke in English ,Hindhi .

I feel your stereotype of Brahmins is more true then the stereotype of Non Brahmins.

It just depends on your Upbringing.(Both for NB and B)

The Two Languages Non Brahmins know are English and Tamil. When they come to Western countries obviously they will speak in English as that is the only mode of communication for Daily Life unlike brahmins who speak in Hindhi as well .

But i appreciate the fact that you were able write critically about your caste which is partly true and also about the NB which is partly true. You addressed the elephant in the room which nobody wants to talk about.

you should address other General issues as well how your caste is perceived in TN ...

V said...

Tam Non-brahm here. Both your stereotypes are wrong at least wrt my circle. Think it has more to do with whether they are from Chennai or interior parts of TN.

Have a lot of Tam-brahms and a few non tam-brahm friends. Most of brahms did not care much about Hindi but were definitely not comfortable reading/writing tamil. Not due to a lack of interest but they did take french/sanskrit as 2nd lang. Some do take a genuine interest in tamil (one of my tam bram friends painstakingly read 5 vols of ponniyin selvan even though he was a very slow tamil reader because he was so impressed by kalki's use of tamizh)

Tam Non brahms I know from chennai (incl. me) can pronounce zha very well. I do see the mispronouncing among non brahms from other parts of TN (it drove me crazy when a friend sang "tamilukku la alagu")

Blame it on AR Rahman for making it cool to speak tamil with an accent.

Rastafari said...

Spot on Hawkeye

blackaccord said...

I think its purely upbringing and the group around you.. As a Tambram I wasn't brought up with an affinity towards Hindi or antyhing. Whatever Hindi we learnt were from watching Nukkad, Humlog etc and going to hindi class to study prathmik, madhiyama just because the girl next door went to those classes.. Infact I despise desis in america who come and talk to me in Hindi as if its my birth right to know hindi... You are certainly right in terms of the converted christians and Tam non-brams... We used to refer to brahmin neighbors as mama where as we were supposed to refer to christian and some of the non-tambrams as uncles..

cram said...

vanakkam thala.

you and your readers might be interested in this one too:

http://publishing.cdlib.org/ucpressebooks/view?docId=ft5199n9v7;brand=ucpress


i believe that the anti brahmin brigade grudgingly accept that there are *some* poonal people who love tamil as much as they do.

but of course, anti brahminism itself is so passe.

so is anti hindi-ism.

Anonymous said...

yeah where is Chen when you need him, ella?

Edhu romba sooper -- I can imagine though I have not heard:
" 'daddy thittum' and 'mammi veiyyum' "

Related aside : In that song in Paarasakthi --
Nenju Porrukudhu ellaya.

T.

So someone asks the singer "dude did you write the lyrics," don't know why scriptwriter KK didn't have the magnanimity to admit the name of the well-known poet!Yes the poonal type, mesai-ed guy..

Word-verification says tancoat when I was thinking of mentioning the black alpaca as additional detail :-)

Anonymous said...

Oh O... this is gonna get ugly.

You heard it here first.

Anonymous said...

patha vechitiye paratta

Suchithra said...

I am not too sure if the stereotype is justified. But as far as I can remember, I know a lot of non-brahmins who say "mummy-daddy" and "la" for "zha"- both of which I have NEVER noticed in a any brahmin I know!
Again, I have noticed lot of Brahmins, especially girls who flaunt their hindi skills. While I also know a good number of Brahmins who hate hindi as much as I do, I know a lot who say "Chennai is not as cool as Bombay yaar" just to make themselves fit in.. The non-Brahmins I know of, don't talk too much hindi, though I have noticed some of them flaunt their hindi as much as Brahmins, at my workplace!

Chenthil said...

I think sucking up to Hindi is more of Rural / Urban divide than Brahm / Non brahm. I didn't even know that Hindi could be taken as second language in school till I came to Madras. Most of the brahmin friends I have are more comfortable cursing in Tamil than Hindi. (An aside, have you heard the beautiful cuss word - virundhalikku porandhavane?) So I have to say the perception of Brahms sucking up to Hindi doesn't ring true.

However, in other issues, Brahms are always suspect of aligning themselves with anti tamil stance. Cho is perceived as the perfect example.

Being a Non Brahm, I will let others decide about my english bootlicking :-).

Those quoting Barathi, do you know that he was critical of Brahmins even before Periyar?

Ravi said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
The Talkative Man said...

Didnt post comment thus far since I am in very many ways an outlier(lived in 14 different cities/continents last decade, more importantly changes hobbies/lifestyle/food habits/social circle every year very radically so as not to belong to any stereotype).

First of all I am quite puzzled over this ruckus over language. I never learnt tamil/hindi in school, choosing a foreign language all the way. I did garner district ranks/certifications in that language. Later on in life I did very consciously opt to delve deep in both my mother tongue(tam) and my national language(hin), so its not like my opting for a foreign language makes me a traitor in any sense : basically any individual can choose be good in any language of his choice. I am comfortable with food habits of any part of India(except maybe out of the normal dishes) and have tried to incorporate them into my everyday diet, so anyone who eats in my house will find it hard to slot me into a single culture. However my clothes choices are quintessentially tamil.

Frankly, I feel this noise about pronouncing zha correctly is akin to calling a hitter of 4s/6s a great batsman - no wonder some tamils think Srikkanth(utter shit south zone quota selection opener with test avg of 29.xx) was batting God! It doesnt take much skill to pronounce zha correctly and still make 'untamil' choices in the rest of your life, such as turning up at a temple in shorts.

I did grew up with Sri Lankan tamils as close friends, still retain touch with them, in fact contacted dozens of sri lankan tamils affected by the war and pretty much know the entire denouement of the eelam struggle year by year off the top of my head, having invested over thousands of hours on it. The indian tamil though is a different animal. Why must you force him(or any other Indian aam-aadmi) to hold an opinion on something as distant as politics, so unrelated to his everyday life???

I believe we all continuously evolve from one shade of barbarianism to a more acceptable one. I dont see tamil's so-called classicalism as a cause for chest-thumping : look, you can pride yourself on Raja Raja Chozha owning Asia's best naval force but in my view the poor Burmese he attacked would regard him as a Mohammad Ghazni. That's just a perspective from 21st century. I bet there are things we do today that our kids will be ashamed off. In fact, I doubt if we need to let our hearts bleed for the tamil language, when, in the name of "protecting the language", schools were closed down for a week in both 1995 and 2010 (oh yeah, the kids used those hols to sit at home and watch FTV or more spectacular stuff on their cellphones). Given the pile of chauvinist shit built over language in TN, no more tears are required. Besides, if you have to impose a cultural symbol on population(tamil/Marati/Kannada/wearing of burqah, segregation of sexes), it only means that tradition has become irrelevant or has a very thin hold on the population.

The Talkative Man said...

Oh BTW, had a Maratha/kannadiga written this post questioning preference for Hindi over Marati/Kannada, we would have jumped all over describing him as a Shiv Sena/Kannada Rakshana Vedike goon, right? :-)

I have nothing against Hindi precisely because there are certain things I like about Hindi, least of all the convenience it offers when you visit 27 out of 28 Indian states. I guess most of the folks whining about indhi-thinichal will shut up and curse TN govt policies left and right if you bundle those tamil nazis and make them stay a month in any Northie state. Shit, tamil is good only in TN, you need Hindi/English whether in Bangalore or Bay Area, so why the hypocrisy? And BTW, why crib about certain communities' nomenclature when 90% of parents prefer their daughter to study in schools started by those very same community? [Ever read the phrase 'convent-educated' appearing in matrimonial columns as a title]. The Daddy-mummy thing is seen among Northies too, so its actually a bad example to point out cultural differences.

Finally, its pretty easy to bring out Bharati into everything...except that the dude must be screaming in his grave on seeing caste very prevalent in matrimonial columns a good 100 years after his death. Of course, in developed parts of the western world, if you expect to be treated based on the brahmin/bushman status of your ancestor 200 years ago, the quickest answer would be to go and f yourself

[search for 'caste' and scroll down - interesting discussion there]

Hawkeye said...

TTM

I mentioned it thrice. Also at the end of the post in the disclaimer section. What is it?

Hawkeye said...

janani,

Agree that there are lot of tambrams who dislike indhi padams. but if you consider only the segment of tamils that watch indhi padams it has a heavy tambram population

anu,

suckups and bootlicks are like item songs in this post. mainly there for effects.

anon,

thanks. but do you think this is an exception or the norm? Thats what I was looking for. is your view of the stereotype aligned to your personal case or is it differnt.

sri,

why should passion towads the thread make one aligned to hindhi. sanskrit yes. but it need not necessarily oppose the tamil cause.

sundar,

agreed.. i have had this opinion for a long time suddnely decided to post it w/o planning for its format

the 2nd language thing is an important factor. It gives a difference that compels one to use it as an advantage. Also don't you think that 'jobs are only in bombay and delhi' concept is a bank thing and is going away in the s/w world. The big s/w sector job places are in banglore, hyd, pune and madras. you can survive with english in these places.

plus tamil 2nd language or tamil medium schools does not improve dote scores as DOTE is purely MPC + TNPCEE


Karthik Narayanan,

the last analogy is probably very true.


bhargavi,

on survival skills. you can look at it in 2 ways. the key question is if you have language skill A naturally and can develop language skill B (you can be reasonably decent at it but not as good as people who speak lang B naturally) - why didnt Tambrams still fight against the imposition of language B and for competition to a neutral terrain like lang C.

One can argue that non-tambrams managed to retain Lang A, not learn lang B, push competition to lang C and ensured long-term survival.

Alan smithee,

cho for sure opposes tamil just because it is the key variable used by dravidian parties to market themselves to people.

anon,

enakku padikka ezhutha theriyarthukkum - logic of this topic'um enna connection?

anon,

if I were not "economically poor" what wold I have seen instead?

Bala,

netthi adi

DNA,

agree.. but dont have time now to write long, serioes of posts.. jeyamohan post too much

I,

who said iyers are saivites?

have you seen cases where a tambram working in s/w in madras - takes indhi side always .

LKS,

i agree. but yuppie generation's behavior is not in line with thamizh thatha

Hawkeye said...

anon,

whatever man...brahmin slang is so much more annoying than the "la" "La" "zha" confusion

so you would like to be bad but not as bad as brahmins. that is your objective?

M,

smarthas are maximum guilty. 'I' prefers speaking hindi over thamizh anyday.

Sathyaram,

the proportion of non brahmins who migrate is still very low and picked up only in the 2nd half of the 2000 decade. Even still its the upper classes among the non-brahmins who migrate the most.

TTM

puriyaliye.. are you saying that i should not stereotype?

R,

The Two Languages Non Brahmins know are English and Tamil. When they come to Western countries obviously they will speak in English as that is the only mode of communication for Daily Life unlike brahmins who speak in Hindhi as well .

I think non-brahmins have an equal chance of learning hindhi but still they choose not to - why?

V,

rural Vs urban divide is a valid dimension..

rastafari,

:-)

blackaccord,

/* Whatever Hindi we learnt were from watching Nukkad, Humlog etc and going to hindi class to study prathmik, madhiyama just because the girl next door went to those classes */

are you saying non-brahmins have less propensity to do these things?

cram,

agree with the passe :-) book looks interesting.

T,

I miss chen's blogs :-(

(and coincidentally he commented)

i didnt get your singer anecdote. who is the singer?

suchitra,

thanks.

/* Again, I have noticed lot of Brahmins, especially girls who flaunt their hindi skills */

yes! i was about to say that but rolled it back.

chen,

'virundhalikku pirandhavan' - is a goundamani patented cuss word. more prevalanin thirunelveli.

btw - i studied ostly in south-of-madras and indhi is available as 2nd language in many places. most christian schools offer it.

The Talkative Man said...

Haakai,
I was merely pointing out the reasons why the four questions you raised were insignificant.

You basically wanted to find out to what extent certain stereotypes hold true. Unfortunately a tremendous lot of stereotypes have been biting the dust in TN in the last decade(as some comments show). I have trust in the middle class that a lot of the bad stereotypes we see today will be wiped out of existence in another 20 years :)

M said...

@hawkeye : note the use of the qualifier "self respecting".

Kaushik said...

I think the said stereotype of TamBrahms must include a mention of Sanskrit as well. This fascination with Sanskrit might or might not have influenced the TamBrahm's opinion towards Hindi, but I would definitely stereotype the TamBrahm to be someone who, irrespective of whether he knows both languages, by default, places Sanskrit above Tamil and proclaims the greatness of Sanskrit while putting down Tamil-greatness-proclaimers (I happened to be one till recently).

An Iengar Chick .... said...

I am an Si, tambram at that. Being raised in NI I do lack in reading and writing aspects of the language but that does not make you or anybody else holier than me (read more thamizhan).

Your need to opine is much appreciated but you are being racist. Eco backward christians are better than slime throwing, name calling racists. This is like bringing back the dark ages. So then are you gonna start sporting a kudimi and run around in veshti and vastram calling ebody ambi LOL.

Do that while we eco challenged tambrams or non-tambrams try to live our lives our way too.

While u r at it y dontchya frens and you use the N word too. freaks

Hawkeye said...

an lengar chick,

while it is clear that you lack basic comprehensision skills, i hope you are at least good looking. This blog discriminates against chicks who are both dumb and ugly.

An Iengar Chick .... said...

Yup, I'm Ugly with a capital U not anymore than your views (opinions).

You did say Eco backward christians, you did say forcing Hindi on thamizhans by masking it as national language

quote The minuscule few who come to western countries take enormous pride in talking in fake accents and try and behave like a DCBA (desi confused by americans). unquote

So they so choose to learn a new accent and ?? Now why is that so imp to you, me or anyone out here.

It would be imp if it was made mandatory to sport a fake accent. Dude chill out. Just because it irks you that some chick muttered daddy thittum, or some guy from the streets of Kolkata wears a calvin and speaks nasally does not mean you start generalising.

I have an accent so does my kiddo and if fake for me is my American for her; its her Indian one so that she can converse with folks back here and they can get what she is saying.

I never call her accent fake, so why should someone call mine one.

Well her lingo includes my dad will kollu me I speak similarly...Mere dad will yell yaar ! wazz the big deal abt it.

Am I proud ~ who cares I dont give it a second thot. Yes I will always be an Indian and then an Iengar and yes I love Hindi as much as I do Tamizh altho my knowledge of the latter is not as much as the former.


Why eco backward convert christiams there are loads of folks who converse similarly. And yeah you rightly said so urself.

You state tamizh brahmins are enamored by hindi mores o than non-brahmins. I beg to differ.

Hindi as it stands today amongst other Indian languages is more popular bcoz of bollywood. I have seen tambrams and non tambrams equally crazy abt it.

Test a theory with facts, numbers and statistics. Not by an opinion poll.

Yeah I am dumb...umm and ugly too.

That does not make your post anything other than your opinion.

Krishna said...

is the 'chick' person for real. how can one be so dumb?

kadasila indha 'chick' englishum varalai tamilum varalai

Suresh said...

i know for sure my readership caste distribution is more diverse.

Nee ena avlo periya appatakkar a? thoo