Monday, May 09, 2011

Free Will

The world would be a much better place when every person becomes aware of the fact that one's 'free will' is often manufactured by others. It is manufactured carefully and delicately for us on a daily basis by people seeking to profit from it.

Someone must develop a theory on why the only way to have free will is by knowing that we never had it to begin with.

27 comments:

Harini said...

I think I have read all blogs from june 2004!!! Will/patience to pen down everything + Thought/opinion on everything + Random probability factor/Bharat ram's psychology + self awareness/2 baby girls to guide +(1)+ religion + JOB = nattamai says this on mothers day??? Have you been instructed not to watch IPL for few minutes?

Hawkeye said...

harini,

vaalu :-) naattammai sonna veruma kekkanum. kelvi kekka koodathu.

i dont watch IPL.

Vignesh said...

I don't know if you have read 'God's Debris' by Scott Adams. If you haven't, you should.

Viswanath said...

Hit the nail on the head sir. That is the exact reason.

tifosikrishna said...

Very true. Right from childbirth we are indoctrinated and consequently brainwashed with things and as life goes by we have no chance of looking at things with a clear mind and question what we do, what are we all about, what is this journey for that we call life...

Our system of beliefs and values are being manipulated mostly by the way of "implicit teaching"

Very few are successful in this art and they are able to bend the "free will" of population at large according to their will....

Such exploitations makes our free will to think that smoking cigarettes is cool or make someone think that flying an aircraft into WTC provides a shortcut to reach Allah....

Another Harini said...

Hii...
If time permits could you post about Narasimha Jayanthi celebrations --- how to, simple prasadam etc... on/before 15th may.

Anonymous said...

What's about the freedom of William?

Ashank said...

I tried reading God's Debris. It was only interesting upto to a point, IMO. tifosikrishna illuminated some interesting aspects of this issue. I am only a novice in this topic but it is understandable that people are 'hard coded' with certain rulesets when they are born/grow up. The world is complex and fast paced. No time to 'find out' EVERYTHING there is solely by contemplation and free will. As evidenced by this post and its comments, it is good that at a later stage, people question these rulesets and even better if they validate and edit their beliefs/rules for themselves. I think thats free will in action. One decides how much he/she can afford to compromise between their desires and the need to conform and belong to their immediate society.
But then again there are these scientific discussions that say that one knows about their choices only after they are formed in their brains or some such. Is this simply the brain's mechanism or evidence against freewill? Only the unable/lazy usually end opinions with questions and I seem to be shining example in that category.

Hawkeye said...

I think free will is manipulated the most when one is old and begins to believe they are doing things out of their own free will. Teenage years/early 20s is the ripest time to manipulate one's free will.


Increase in number of people (especially paapara girls and boys) who consume alcohol and trying to act as if that is cool, fervent celebration of valentines day, any-other-day, the new atheism trend, sri sri ravishankar, sai-baba, doing nonsense in the name of rebelling against tradition. All are also result of pretty neat manipulation.

Imagine this. Karunanidhi bet on the free TV scheme to be funded via TASMAC sales growth. And there are thousands of teenagers drinking sarakku thinking its their free will. What a coincidence?

tifosikrishna said...

"nonsense in the name of rebelling against tradition"

Hawk... what we call as tradition today as in religious practices like dvaita or vishishtadvaita could have once been looked as a fad. During the initial stages of their evolution, they could have undergone numerous trials and tribulations for a few generations before becoming widely accepted by the society and eventually becoming part of culture/tradition.

So one needs to exercise caution before blindly labeling anything against tradition as non-sense as the thought process that led to such conclusion could have been contaminated by so many values and belief that are passed on from generation to generation.

Though I agree with the point of view of your original post, I am fully aware that the argument is very theoretical.

Culture & Tradition to me are simply a set of best practices that are essential for human beings to exist peacefully as a society. Hence it may not be possible for any social animal to start a 'thought process' on a clean slate as it a prerequisite to have an operating system (set of subconscious beliefs).

However as Ashank pointed out, human beings gifted with unique virtue of self-awareness, can decide to exercise the same and take a neutral view of their own operating system that and then take a call to either to install patches to his current version or format and install his own version of OS or to choose some other popular OS....

Hawkeye said...

tifsofkrishna,

I wanted to make the post about targeting a kind of 'free will manipulation' that is less talked about. The first 14 years of school/parental manipulation is often talked about and is less dangerous.

It is in the later years when people apply pathes to their OS in the name of free will where this becomes more dangerous. Because former is a clean acceptance of lack of free will. the latter is a delusion.

On dvaitha/vishishta-dwaitha: I am not sure if they were looked on as a fad. We dont know for sure. Also we dont know for sure if social structures and lack of instant communication prevalant in those days allowed for fads to spread so irrationally.

infact dvaitha and vishishta dvaitha was spread via rigorous debates with a lot at stake and long periods of gestation. Today's anna hazare phenomenon was vigorously spported within days by people who hadnt read anything about the bill..

/*Culture & Tradition to me are simply a set of best practices that are essential for human beings to exist peacefully as a society */

I am not sure of this definition either. This is an example of a 'free will manipulation' that I was concerned about. you know the popular qick spreading notions that go like 'religion is service to mankind'.

In effect I think human's ability to have self-awareness is limited. To act on any perception of self-awareness is almost negligible. to take a neutral view is almost impossible. manipulation of 'free will is present maximum when a person thinks all of this is easily doable.

D.N.A. said...

Isn't the illusion of free will better than delusions of "voices in the head / god spoke to me" in terms of total downside?

And I understand the post is referring to folks on one of that boundary conditions. (I think)

Alan Smithee said...

49-O is not comopletely pointless after all.. It helps police identify naxals apparently. (From thuglak magazine)

கே : வாக்குப் பதிவில் 49(ஓ)-வைப் பயன்படுத்தியவர்களுக்கு நக்ஸலைட்டுகளுடன் தொடர்பிருக்கலாம் என்கிற கோணத்தில், சில இடங்களில் அவர்களிடம் போலீஸார் விசாரணை செய்கிறார்களாமே? இதைக் காவல்துறையின் அத்துமீறல் என்று கூறுவீர்களா...?

ப : ஓட்டளித்தவர்களை ‘ஏன் இப்படி ஓட்டளித்தீர்கள்’ என்று கேட்டு விசாரிக்கிற உரிமை போலீஸிற்கு இருந்தால் – அதன் பிறகு ஓட்டுரிமை என்பதே, அர்த்தமற்றுப் போகும். ஓட்டு, ஒரு உரிமை என்பது போய், அது ஒரு வலை என்றாகிவிடும். ஆகையால், இதை ஏற்க முடியாது.

அதே சமயத்தில், எந்தக் கட்சியும் வேண்டாம் என்று கருதுகிறவர்களில் சிலர் நக்ஸலைட்களுடன் தொடர்புடையவர்களாக இருக்கிறார்கள் என்ற சந்தேகம் போலீஸிற்கு இருந்தாலும் – அவர்கள் விசாரணை இப்படி ஓட்டுப் பதிவு தொடர்புடையதாக அமையக் கூடாது; இதைத் தகவலாக வைத்துக் கொண்டு, இதற்கு மேல் விசாரணை நடத்தி, அந்த விசாரணையின் அடிப்படையில் சம்பந்தப்பட்டவரை விசாரிக்கலாம். இது மிகவும் சாமர்த்தியத்துடன் செய்யப்பட வேண்டிய விஷயம்.

Anonymous said...

enna kodumai saravanan!

i am big fan of your blog - but this one sure let me down!
and esp your comments about sai/godmen..
i am a practising Sri Vaishnavite - proud to be one. But I do respect Godmen - its not a way of rebelling. Just respecting the services that they render which you and I can never imagine of doing.
-Bhargavi

Hawkeye said...

bhargavi,

i clearly draw a distinction between godmen and an acharya. both seem to be at least in today's day and age mutually exclusive. godmen dont ocntribute *anything* to religion and are popular because they provide some quick fixes and so are popular. acharyas contribute immensely to religious discourse and literiture and as a consequence of doing the right thing arent popular.

Anonymous said...

....huh?

look, nobody in the present age has the level of spiritual attainment to mull over such weighty topics - we will get nowhere if we make any attempt in this direction.

the best thing to do is silently follow one's own sampradaya with sincerity and be compliant to the best of out ability without heading too much into the intellectual side.

not trying to put you down or anything, but sadly the times when a genuine interaction of views on such profound matters was possible is long past - just trying to give out some practical advice.

Hawkeye said...

last anon who commented.

i am not sure i understood what you said. completely have no context on what you are talking about.

just that the usage of 'spiritual' as arequirement for 'mulling on weighty topics' bothered me. as they are complete opposites.

tifosikrishna said...

"I wanted to make the post about targeting a kind of 'free will manipulation' that is less talked about. The first 14 years of school/parental manipulation is often talked about and is less dangerous.

It is in the later years when people apply pathes to their OS in the name of free will where this becomes more dangerous. Because former is a clean acceptance of lack of free will. the latter is a delusion."

True.

I took dvaita,v-dvaita just as an example and I don't have a clue on how it evolved. That's why I used 'could'. However the larger point is many ideas/practices that we call as tradition/culture could have been labeled has outlandish and stupid in its early stages and we shouldn't fall prey to that.

Proliferation of ideas aided by social infrastructure can be seen as a double edged sword. Though the framework helps in spread of ideas, the pros/cons and subsequently the acceptance of it are discussed threadbare by kuppusamy, munnusamy & harry. It goes through a better grind than just being scrutinized by few experts.

The case of AH was an exception, it was a pressure cooker scenario. Already there was so much of pent up anger (steam) and AH just made a small vent and cooker just exploded.In such cases it is impractical to expect people to sit and take a informed decision. It was similar to recent uprisings in Arab World. I don't think people had a well thought out Plan B before taking to the streets.

Was my definition of C & T such a popular notion? I thought it was out of my FREE WILL and to a large extent I still believe in what I said.

"In effect I think human's ability to have self-awareness is limited. To act on any perception of self-awareness is almost negligible. to take a neutral view is almost impossible. manipulation of 'free will is present maximum when a person thinks all of this is easily doable."

Perfect. If one moves from a stage of unconscious incompetence to conscious incompetence and takes cognizance of the fact that his 'will' is being manipulated, then he has taken a step in the right direction.

tifosikrishna said...

"I wanted to make the post about targeting a kind of 'free will manipulation' that is less talked about. The first 14 years of school/parental manipulation is often talked about and is less dangerous.

It is in the later years when people apply pathes to their OS in the name of free will where this becomes more dangerous. Because former is a clean acceptance of lack of free will. the latter is a delusion."

True.

I took dvaita,v-dvaita just as an example and I don't have a clue on how it evolved. That's why I used 'could'. However the larger point is many ideas/practices that we call as tradition/culture could have been labeled has outlandish and stupid in its early stages and we shouldn't fall prey to that.

Proliferation of ideas aided by social infrastructure can be seen as a double edged sword. Though the framework helps in spread of ideas, the pros/cons and subsequently the acceptance of it are discussed threadbare by kuppusamy, munnusamy & harry. It goes through a better grind than just being scrutinized by few experts.

The case of AH was an exception, it was a pressure cooker scenario. Already there was so much of pent up anger (steam) and AH just made a small vent and cooker just exploded.In such cases it is impractical to expect people to sit and take a informed decision. It was similar to recent uprisings in Arab World. I don't think people had a well thought out Plan B before taking to the streets.

Was my definition of C & T such a popular notion? I thought it was out of my FREE WILL and to a large extent I still believe in what I said.

"In effect I think human's ability to have self-awareness is limited. To act on any perception of self-awareness is almost negligible. to take a neutral view is almost impossible. manipulation of 'free will is present maximum when a person thinks all of this is easily doable."

Perfect. If one moves from a stage of unconscious incompetence to conscious incompetence and takes cognizance of the fact that his 'will' is being manipulated, then he has taken a step in the right direction.

ms said...

"free will" is the freedom you are given by others to do as you please. it has limits. it is conditional.

Anonymous said...

nice discussion!
Nithya
www.dewdropsindia.com

Anonymous said...

One thing even God isnt allowed to mess with is "free will"!
Nithya
http://www.dewdropsindia.in

Anonymous said...

Phenomenal reality is so profound that the mind thinks that is actual reality itself. There is already the problem of concentrating the mind to inquire the nature of self without any distractions. Internally the man is manipulated by his egoistic self. External manipulations add fuel to the fire, where man has completely lost touch on what self-introspection really means.

shubha said...

Hi Hawkeye
I am shubha,I live in Seattle too.I want to ask you about some MBA career options.Will you be interested in answering my doubts/ questions? Is there an email id to reach you?Thank you

Anonymous said...

good one ..keep writing more..

Nithya
http://www.dewdropsindia.in

tifosikrishna said...

I remember posting a comment and went to you for approval. Did you get it? Or was it unworthy to be shared?

Hawkeye said...

shubha - hawkeyeview@gmail.com